I Think I Was Ripped Off UPDATED

"Walfisch" (walfisch05) 09/20/2014 at 22:18 • Filed to: Stealership

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UPDATE: Thank you very much to all the folks who chimed in. This was very educational, especially for me, and I've learned a lot on the common issues concerning this part. Posting my issue here in Oppo is the right decision for me, so thanks again!

I brought my car over to my usual dealership today due to some loud squeaking noise coming from the rear, which I figured are the brakes. And since I needed an oil change, why not do the same thing right? This is the same place I've been taking my car for years now, and I've always dealt with the same person - his prices for parts and labor are a tad higher, but nothing glaring compared to other shops. So I repeatedly go there.

After spending some time at the dealership lobby waiting for the prognosis on my car, the gentleman fetched me and said that, besides the two service items I mentioned, it seemed that the right CV joint boot is torn and is now leaking fluid, which was ridiculous because when I drove on my way there today, I did not see any kind of liquid on my parking spot. So I asked, "Is the liquid visible if we keep the car on stand still?" which he said no since it catches on other parts of the car. My BS meter was getting high, so I asked if I can take a look at the car while on the lift. He agreed, so he tried to call the maintenance bay first, but no answer, which then he promptly said, "Let's just go there."

Once I got to the car on the lift, it's now leaking all this fluid on the floor. I borrowed a flashlight, and it looked like it's fresh, and I don't see any signs of dried up fluid anywhere on the proximity of the part. As he showed be the defective part, I noticed that the tear on the rubber housing doesn't look like it's from a worn item. I could be mistaken, but it looks like it was cut.

Since there's no way I can drive the car out of there even if I wanted to, I kept my suspicions to myself, and told them to do the repairs. No point in antagonizing them while they have my car in their possession. The gentleman said that the car should be ready this Monday, and that he'll give me a call once it's ready. I told him not to dispose of the defective part, and that I'd like to take that with me, which he readily agreed to.

Sorry for the long rant. I need your advice folks, since I vaguely remember some people here having stealership issues. What kind of action can I take here? Is it worth it to go to court with these people? Should I just confront them once I take my car back? Do I lodge a complaint to the BBB and FTC? Or should I do all of these and more?

Conan > Walfisch 09/20/2014 at 22:20

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Send Steve Lehto a note. He might have some ideas even if it's not his direct area of automotive law.

BJ > Walfisch 09/20/2014 at 22:34

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Sounds fishy. A torn cv boot does not mean leaking fluid. The boot is there to keep grit out of the greased cv joint, preventing premature wear; there is no liquid inside. It couldn't leak like that without help.

You did the right thing asking them to keep the defective part. If this request is not written on the work order, however, don't be surprised to hear "oops, we binned the old part."

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Walfisch 09/20/2014 at 22:38

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I feel like you're being overly sensitive here. Honestly they almost always look like they've been cut and make a huge mess that rarely drips onto the ground but instead coats all of the steering and suspension on that corner in a thick, globby layer of grease. CV joints aren't lubricated by liquid, but a thin grease, almost like the consistency of barbecue sauce. This is a common repair on pretty much everything with CV joints and they can fail randomly at just about any time. Usually if they're more than 4-5 years old or more than 50k miles, sometimes sooner.

Schep9d > Walfisch 09/20/2014 at 22:39

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CV boots can tear directly on the creases of the boot. They are most definitely not filled with a fluid. It is a grease that cakes itself on everything. If the car is leaking fluid I would suspect the axle seal to the transmission.

Typical Subaru CV boot tear for reference. The black goop is the grease splod.

Steve in Manhattan > BJ 09/20/2014 at 22:44

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That's what I was going to say - it is packed with grease - it's not like a differential that's full of oil.

BJ > Walfisch 09/20/2014 at 22:44

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Another possibility: the boot was actually torn and to make sure you got it repaired, the shop embellished a bit. Not exactly dishonest, perhaps they have found that customers need some convincing for small jobs like this.

Walfisch > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 09/20/2014 at 22:45

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I find it suspect though, that when I brought my car in, it drove fine and has no leaks whatsoever when left. Then when they said that the CV boot is torn, which coincidentally happened in the repair bay, I clarified if the leak is visible, which he said no. Then when I looked at the car, it's dripping with grease (yeah it's not just some liquid, I used the wrong term) and leaving a mess below it. So I don't think I'm overly sensitive at all.

Walfisch > Schep9d 09/20/2014 at 22:46

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Yeah I used the wrong term, it is a grease alright, and it is true the tear is on the crease of the boot itself.

Walfisch > BJ 09/20/2014 at 22:47

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Hopefully they do not, since I'm counting on that defective part as evidence. We'll see.

vdubyajohn > Walfisch 09/20/2014 at 22:47

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definitely get the old part. Mention to them what other have said here, that there is no "liquid" in there, and ask why then, was "liquid" leaking out? I would have taken pictures, but I'm naturally suspicious of service departments. Seems my windshield wipers always "tore" when I brought it in for inspection, so I bought new ones right before the next inspection and left the new packages in the back seat. They obviously didn't see them because my brand new wipers developed a tear right there in the service bay. I showed him the new packages, told him I had just put them on, and he gives me this crap about how they must be "defective" and as a "service" to me, they would replace that one for free. Douche nozzle...

Walfisch > Conan 09/20/2014 at 22:51

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His name sounds familiar. Is he a contributor in Jalopnik or Oppo?

jariten1781 > Walfisch 09/20/2014 at 22:56

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On a most setups the CV boot stretches a lot when the suspension is unloaded on the lift. A small tear will get longer and what might have been unnoticed before gets exposed. It's pretty normal and I would not think it fishy unless it'd been replaced relatively recently.

VincentMalamute-Kim > Walfisch 09/20/2014 at 22:56

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I agree with AMGtech. I have had so many fraudulent/incompetent dealer/mechanic episodes, I'll be the first to jump on them. However, CV boots tear. CV grease is incredibly thick. It'll get flung out of the boot when the car is moving and coat surrounding components. It won't drip or leak onto the ground like any other kind orf oil/liquid leak. Like Schel9d's picture, the tears can look like they're cut. If these guys have been honest in all your other interactions, I bet they're giving you the straight scoop here. I'd lay off of them.

Another reason to be doing your own work under there. Then you can give all your CV boots, tie rod ends, sway bar ends, bushings, engine mounts, ball joints the once over each time you're under there. Then you won't be surprised.

Conan > Walfisch 09/20/2014 at 23:01

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He contributes to both.

http://stevelehto.kinja.com/

I think you can Google him to get an email if you don't want to jump on a post.

Walfisch > jariten1781 09/20/2014 at 23:09

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This makes sense perfectly. Thank you, I'll definitely consider this.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Walfisch 09/20/2014 at 23:09

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Obviously I'm not there and seeing what you are seeing, however I still would be VERY surprised if they are being dishonest here. This also isn't an issue that you would ever notice without actually looking at the boot itself. So unless you were just under the car right before bringing it in to them you can't possibly know know if it was a pre-existing condition or not. For all you know the car may have caught a twig or rock in just the wrong spot on the drive to the shop, even the tiniest of punctures on these boots can create a huge mess in a very short amount of time and go from small puncture to large tear/cut just as fast.

Walfisch > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 09/20/2014 at 23:13

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That's true. My car is hardly brand new, so there is also the possibility that the part is on its last leg. Also, somebody pointed out that maybe while the tech was tooling around it, it exacerbated the tear which is understandable, and even putting the car on the lift can create a deeper gash altogether.

So if this CV boot is already on this amount of wear, what are the chances that the other 3 would share this same condition?

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Walfisch 09/20/2014 at 23:23

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I doubt that they would have been working near enough to it to damage it with what you said they were doing, and further damage just from lifting it is unlikely as those boots are subjected to far worse just driving down the road. These things just happen, don't ruin an established relationship with your shop over this little thing.

It is not very common to have more than one fail at the same time. But it does happen. Also, if they are not replacing the whole axle (this is often cheaper than replacing boots) then I would advise replacing both boots on that axle while it is out.

Dunnik > Walfisch 09/21/2014 at 00:47

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Just to chime in on this and join the chorus, yea it seems legit, also because a torn CV boot can cause squeaking/squealing, so cause does match symptoms here.

Also it would be unusual for a shop you've been giving your business to for years - with the assumption you would continue to do so in future - to suddenly decide to scam you, and over what is only a, what, $300-400 repair.

Nevertheless, as the saying goes, trust but verify.

The Stig's Rustbelt Cousin > Walfisch 09/22/2014 at 13:35

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Torn CV boots will not leak anything while the vehicle is stationary, because they are filled with grease that is slightly thicker than Vaseline. When the wheels is turning, the centrifugal force will cause the grease to be flung outward, where it will collect on whatever parts it hits. The telltales are grease and dirt buildup on nearby suspension components, and/or inside the wheel where the boot is torn.

Most CV boots fail due to old age, as the rubber they're made of gets dry and begins to crack. How long they last depends upon local conditions, so it's hard to put a mileage number on how long they'll last. In this case, if one of them is split, and the other is showing signs of drying or cracking, they're probably not trying to scam you. As others have mentioned, they almost always split in the bottom of those accordion-creases, resulting in a tear that looks suspiciously like someone cut it, even though that likely is not the case.

The Stig's Rustbelt Cousin > Walfisch 09/22/2014 at 15:00

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It's tough to say. Odds are, if the left outer boot has split, the right outer one is going to be next to go. Check for signs of dry-rot or cracking in the creases.

The inner boots don't need replacement as often as the outers, as they tend to be more protected from the elements (on most cars), as well as being subjected to less flexing and turning, since the transaxle they're connected to doesn't change direction in relation to the rest of the car (and if it does, get that shit fixed, and fast).